Since neither of the VP candidates ran for the Presidential slot, I didn’t really pay much attention to them prior to tonight’s debate. In order to understand my biases (and to gather some knowledge for myself), here are outtakes and information from Wikipedia, Ballotpedia and On the Issues on both contenders.
Mike Pence
On the Issues graphical depiction of VP Candidate Mike Pence.
Governor Pence is a lawyer (Indiana University) who ran a private practice for a short while, followed by a stint as a talk-radio host (comparing himself to Rush Limbaugh), followed by 12 years in the House of Representatives (during which he was considered to be highly conservative), and then election to the Indiana governorship in 2012. He appears to be a far right conservative. The On The Issues graphical description should be on the right.
Looking through their Vote Quiz, I find very little in common with the guy, from expanding the military even further, invading Iran, to higher taxes on the wealthy; about the best I could say is that he and I might find common ground on “more enforcement of the right to vote”, although there is no elaboration on this point. Steve Benen on Maddowblog points out,
But on a substantive level, we’re talking about a politician whose claim to fame is an anti-LGBT law that did real harm to his state. Pence is a climate denier. He rejects the idea that cigarettes are deadly. He doesn’t believe in evolutionary biology, but he does support “conversation therapy.”
Long after it was obvious Iraq didn’t have weapons of mass destruction, Pence was still insisting that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Soon after, when the Bush/Cheney administration pushed partial privatization of Social Security, the Indiana Republican was outraged – because he said the plan wasn’t nearly right-wing enough. In 2011, just a few months after the GOP took control of the U.S. House, Pence’s big idea, to the annoyance of his party leaders, was to shut down the federal government.
Pence also once accused Disney of hiding political propaganda in an animated film to convince people that women can serve in the military.
By most sensible standards, Mike Pence has earned a reputation as an extremist.
In his own words, he …
… has described himself as “a Christian, a conservative and a Republican, in that order,” and as “a born-again, evangelical Catholic.”
Tim Kaine
On the Issues graphical depiction of VP Candidate Tim Kaine.
Senator Kaine of Virginia is a lawyer (Harvard Law School), worked for two private law firms over 17 years, taught as an adjunct professor at University of Richmond, and won election to the Richmond City Council on four occasions, twice as mayor. In 2001 he ran for and won the Lieutenant Governorship of Virginia; in 2005 he won the governorship. He was DNC chairman 2009-2011, and won his current position as Senator in the 2012 election. The On The Issues graphical description is on the left.
So he appears to be a mild liberal. Looking at the Vote Quiz, I can mostly live with this guy, although yet again there’s a militarist in the race – but at least he’s not interested in invading Iran. All that said, I still think he looks like a doofus. Sorry, Tim.
How important is this debate? With regard to Senator Kaine, I should like to get a sense of how well he’ll work with Clinton if they win the election, his anticipated responsibilities, and, in the unfortunate event of her death, how well he would perform as a President. The latter I do not believe is likely.
With regard to Governor Pence, his ability to perform as President is the question of the day, as if Trump wins the election, reports seem to indicate that he will have his VP responsible for far more than is traditional in Administrations. We can expect Pence will have more influence than Kaine with regard to policies, while Trump would remain as perhaps the face of the Administration – but not the brain. I also assign a higher possibility of Trump resigning (for either boredom, scandal, or other reasons) and Pence taking the Presidency than I do Clinton leaving the Presidency for any reason.
And now for the delayed live-blog.
[Note that time stamps will be approximate]
8:06 – Kaine leaps right to the campaign message. Can he tie it into the question about Kaine’s leadership? He’s giving it a try, giving an insight into how the Clinton Admin would work. “The thought of Donald Trump as the C-in-C scares us to death.” Has such a blunt assessment of the opposing team ever been voiced before?
8:09 – Pence is a better speaker than his boss. “He’s a small-town boy” – but spent 12 years in Congress. How is he trying to portray himself? A lifetime of experience – but did he learn from the anti-LGBT experience?
8:13 – Kaine wants to portray Clinton as someone with a lifetime of experience “serving others” – is this an attempt to chisel off some evangelical voters with a phrase which should be very familiar to them? It doesn’t hurt that it seems to be a true description. Contrasts it to Trump’s behavior, then returns to the birther lie.
8:16 – Pence ignores the question and claims the Clinton campaign indulges in insults – does an insult have to be false to be an insult? Kaine should let Pence hang himself, though – suggesting Trump employs thousands of people while forgetting that Trump often stiffs them on pay, an un-American thing to do. Now it’s just each talking, impossible to understand except that Pence thinks Clinton should have “renegotiated” the Iraq treaty that had us leaving – but what if Iraq didn’t care to do so? Pinning leaving Iraq is critical to the meme that Obama/Clinton is responsible for ISIS, but that’s like nailing Jello to a wall – only a fool or a desperate man will try that.
8:18 – Kaine confirms that Iraq wants us out.
8:20 – Ah, Obama’s responsible for the budget. Come on, Pence, you know better. And governors are responsible for employment. Hmmmmm. “War on Coal” is a good thing, actually – AE points out that coal mining is a Virginia industry, so that’s why he’s making these idiotic remarks. Although since Pence doesn’t believe in climate change. But it’s tax reduction, tax reduction, tax reduction. That’s it. Kansas tried that and is now the saddest state in the Union.
8:23 – if you believe in detailed policy, you love Kaine for at least having one, whether or not you like it. Clean energy, infrastructure – common liberal priorities which, in my opinion, are necessities – fixing disasters is far more expensive than doing proper maintenance. BTW, I started a Federal petition asking for a ban on the export of coal. It got 15 signatures nation-wide 🙂
8:25 – off to tax returns. Pence wants to talk about the economy – “we’re in a ditch”, yet unemployment is below 5%. So back to the “disaster meme”. Now to tax returns, Pence says he was going through8 tough times – at a time when the economy was booming, he doesn’t mention. Pence is dancing a fine line. Trump has created thousands of jobs – but how is this experience, true or not, apply to government? It’s an achievement, but it’s not a government achievement. In my opinion, he saves money by stiffing the working guy – who Pence has tried to portray himself as. “Trump will release his tax returns!” Pence is adamant but not really believable.
8:29 – Social Security – Kaine jumps right in with “we’ll protect it”. He justifies it, waves at higher taxes, then refuses to privatize SS. Points out Pence and Trump both want to private SS. Pence “There they go again” – a Reagan reference, AE says. Pence refuses to actually respond it.
8:35 – Police responsibility – Kaine touts his experience reducing homicide rates, boosts community policing. Rejects militarization of the police – I like this. Kaine sounds prepared – close gun control loopholes, community policing, etc. Pence – uncle was a cop. Agrees about community policing, transitions to “law & order”, touts endorsement from police union. Pokes the police in a raw place and blames the people who criticize the police for doing so. So he may solidify some police support – but what about us who see the many, many police shootings and wonder why unarmed people are being shot? Now they talk about Castile, killed just down the street from where I live. Kaine wants to talk about the symptoms, while Pence thinks that’s beyond the pale. The more attention you pay to these shootings, the more you have to wonder if these are isolated bad cops or if it’s a more systemic problem. As Kaine says, you can’t just ignore it.
8:37 – Senator Scott is quoted and Pence asked to react; he skips it. He admits justice reform is necessary. Law enforcement needs more support at the national level? Really? This leaves an opening for Kaine to quote Trump in how he disrespects various elements of the justice system, McCain, and others – the wagon is dumped.
8:42 – Immigration – Pence claims Trump has a plan, but what is it? Build a fantasy wall? Turns into an attack on the Clinton plan. Nevermind illegal immigration is at historic low levels at the moment – a bit of a trumped up issue. Why don’t they talk about improving conditions in the countries which were the homes of these illegal immigrants? Our influence is greater than we think through our food export policies. Oh, dear, Pence is upset about insults again. Grow up, Mike, Trump started this during primary season. Sheesh, I don’t care about insults. What is the Clinton immigration plan? Reform, keep families together, focus on the violent, improve border patrol, path to citizenship. Terribly limited in my view, but I suspect I’m in a very small minority when it comes to placing blame for the poverty and violence south of the border.
8:46 – Pence touts another union endorsement. While Pence demonizes immigrants, I note Kaine looks calm and confident as Pence also demonizes the federal government, while Pence is calm but sometimes defensive. Pence is looking forward to reform, but Kaine wants to pin Trump’s extremist rhetoric on Pence.
8:50 – Terrorism – Kaine touts Obama accomplishments. Suggests only Clinton can continue to reduce terror. Presents a list of priorities. Now critiques Trump – claims he trash talks the military. Brings out the nuclear policy problems of Trump’s rhetoric. Pence is unhappy, but leaps right to scaring the electorate – a lack of leadership. Yet we’re so much better now. Ah, now we’re back to the ISIS scare, as if we had a choice about Iraq. Will the American public believe we should have ignored that treaty and engaged in illegality? And with ISIS in retreat, it’s a little hard to take Pence seriously. Pence hates the Iranian nuclear deal.
8:55 – Pence must defend extreme vetting of immigrants from terror nations. How many do we get, though? Our island status makes us a little safer than Europe. They clash over immigration, but “he’ll put safety first”, but that is not a plan, just a goal.
8:58 – Kaine is asked about intelligence surge, which he explains in a lucid, straightforward manner. Pivots to Trump’s trashing of NATO, then touts Clinton’s experience in alliances. Pence responds as if Donald understands cyberwarfare, then pivots to the Clinton mail server. Kaine notes the FBI disagrees with Pence’s analysis, and Pence doesn’t get to override that analysis. Pence is pissed off.
[Arts Editor exits as this point to “sluice the slime off”, commenting that Pence is more polished than Kaine (I think they’re comparable) and is quite charming and believable, “no matter how unbelievable what comes out of his mouth.” AE grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist family and is now fairly liberal as a consequence.]
9:00 – Syria – Pence thinks we should protect the citizens of Syria. Oh, my, Putin is the small and bullying leader of Russia – I guess this is how to break the Putin/Trump meme. Oh, GOD – smallest Navy since 1916? Are you FUCKING KIDDING? Put the entire 1916 fleet against ONE modern submarine and that sub wouldn’t suffer a scratch, while the fleet would be junk! This is populism at its worst, scaring the citizenry and treating them like children. Will anyone ask Pence how much it would cost to build all those “missing” ships? Enough to break this country is my guess. And how did we get here from Syria? Ah, safe zones. It’s a nice phrase. Now back to Russia, to be met with American strength. And then back to Syria. Confusing – on purpose?9:05
9:03 – Kaine says Clinton can easily stand up to Putin, and then the pivot to Trump’s connections to Putin, including campaign staff. Now back to Trump income taxes, comparing Clinton to Trump. But Syria is a hard question which he’s more or less avoiding. I wouldn’t care to answer it.
9:08 – The moderator wants to know about safe zones, but Pence doesn’t have any real answers, while blaming the Obama Administration for weakness, etc. This is, of course, without mentioning that the GOP has actively worked against our foreign policy – see the Iranian letter (which caused gales of laughter). Blames Obama for Putin aggressiveness. Kaine responds with Reagan’s quote on nuclear proliferation, which horrifies Pence – he projects moral horror at a reasonable question, and Pence doesn’t want to actually answer the question. Back to Iran, which is sort of close to Syria. And now he’s brought up the “ransom payment”, which is rank falsehood – that’s money we owed them for non-delivery of a weapons system.
9:12 – Russia invasion & Syria – Kaine: don’t praise Putin as a “great leader”, pissing off Pence. Says Clinton has gone “toe to toe”, sanctions, etc. Trump wasn’t even aware – said it on TV. Trump made to look ignorant. Pence interrupts and is not happy, although composed. Back to tax returns, as a way to see if he has more connections to Russia. Pence is upset and plays the victim. He must be careful because a lot of this is documented. Pence’s turn is to turn back to the Iranian deal and suggesting Iran and Russia are getting together. Pence is “astonished”, yet he’s back to the ransom note lie. This guy is so smooth – or he’s so taken in that he really believes it. But he’s a lawyer and doesn’t seem stupid. I wouldn’t buy lemonade from this guy.
9:14 – Why will Putin respect Trump? Because we’ll rebuild our military – sheesh. Pence once again puts Putin and Obama down. Kaine quotes Pence to his face, and then reiterates that leadership should not be confused with dictatorship.
9:16 -Kaine says the problem with Russia is Putin, now touts Clinton’s many accomplishments with Putin.
9:18 – North Korea’s nuclear capability – Pence remains convinced our military is in ruins. Wants to use allies to pressure NK to drop nuclear weapons. Hard question, really. But now we pivot to the Clinton Foundation, which has been repeatedly investigated and found to be clean as a whistle. “Foreign countries cannot participate in the American political process”? Bullshit. “Pay to play” is brought up. Kaine responds that CF is highly rated charity, does many good things; Clinton was investigated as Secretary and never did anything inappropriate. Now the Trump Foundation is brought up by Kaine, who notes the contrast – a recent fine – will he also mention the order by New York that TF stop soliciting funds as it lacks the appropriate license? Kaine portray CF as clean as a whistle while TF is shabby and engages in illegalities. Kaine may win this one. But what happened to the hard problem of NK? *Laughter from everyone* Kaine is correcting Pence on his “facts”.
9:23 – hard question on NK launch of nuclear missile – Kaine takes the question but dodges the specific pre-emptive strike question, pivots to China’s action on the Security Council and suggests the Chinese may be nervous about NK as well. Touts Clinton’s experience, then notes Trump owes Chinese banks money. Hey, Pence didn’t get to answer the question! Boo!
9:32 – religion and public policy – Kaine answers by reviewing his personal history, is devout in his personal life, but affirms the secular nature of the USA. Death penalty is his big conflict, being against it in a state with the death penalty. Good delivery and explanation, admits it’s hard to permit death penalties (as VA governor) and explains the traditional view of his is just one religion among many. Pence also reviews his personal history, and on to the sanctity of life – so he’s on the abortion issue. Claims Indiana is pro-adoption – I don’t know. Ah, a pivot to partial birth abortion, so a peaceful question goes nuclear. I do not doubt that both are stressed by abortion, but historically – over centuries, even millenia – abortion has been an option used by women who cannot care for a child. Kaine retorts concerning Trump and women who have abortion. Pence falls back on the assertion that Trump is not a polished politician – which is true in the conventional sense of politics, but false in this new age of speaking in code and rabble rousing – so I tend to think that if something is said, it’s meant. Even walking something back isn’t really valid, although I’ll allow for special circumstances, such as an honest misunderstanding of facts. Pence is off to the religious races – Kaine wants to know why Trump and Pence doesn’t trust women. Pence dodges, but neither really addresses the question of why most homicide is illegal, and then attempted to link that to abortion – or not. Homicide, the taking of human life by another human, induces societal instability because one’s future becomes very uncertain – and the same for one’s family – if it’s not illegal and discouraged. Abortion, the termination of a pregnancy of something that is not yet a part of society, does not appear to fall into that category; however, a treatment of the loss of the potential of such lives should have been part of the discussion (except a 2 minute argument would be a disservice). Without that discussion, anti-abortion arguments, as beautiful as they sound, and as strongly believed as they are by Governor Pence and many other Americans, are inevitably a faith-based argument, and as such should not be part of the American legal system. We are not a theocracy, thank goodness.
9:40 – final question – how to unify the country? Kaine – Clinton is about bringing the country together, Trump is not. Asserts Clinton has great respect across the aisle (but that was 8 years ago and many of those GOP politicians are probably gone or silenced). Kaine asserts both of them know how to work across the aisle. Pence: economy is foundering, scare the citizenry – so let’s change the government in D.C. Rebuild the military and we should be strong. Trump is all about “building”. For those who know, this is a weak answer. But the rest of us, will they realize?
Pence is smooth and knows how to use words to suggest we’re not as great as we were, without really offering a coherent approach to how to get there. The occasional plans we accidentally here from the Trump campaign tend to emphasize increased spending on the military (how do you rebuild, after all) while reducing taxes; they are depending on Laffer curve to save their asses. That’s what Brownback has done in Kansas, and now all of Kansas groans at their misfortune. Will we repeat that experiment in the hopes that it works at the national level?
Kaine has his own smoothness after so many years in politics, and for all that, his (forgive me) “doofus” appearance and even personality actually works for him. They’re both earnest, but Kaine’s is more believable because he speaks not about having plans, but he actually presents them, and like them or not, at least you have something to think about. Pence labors under the problem that Trump’s campaign doesn’t believe they need to produce plans, that voters would be bored by them – I’ve written about that elsewhere. That leaves him with a lot of blank time to cover with goals that lack plans. How to fund military spending? By cutting taxes? So he had to attack the Clinton campaign, and his smooth approach (no doubt developed from years of talk radio) served him well. Will viewers check the facts? My Arts Editor tells me that fact-checking is occurring – I hope viewers will try to do what I do, which is to discard the style of the speaker and hear the assertions, and then check them and the logic connecting them. I heard enough falsehoods from Pence to make me, if I knew nothing else, very suspicious; from Kaine, I hear a doofus with a record of success. How many lies did he tell? Honestly, I didn’t catch any, but what do I know?
OK, stopping now for the night. Further thoughts will be in other blog posts.
